exporting to 64 bit VST

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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby CoreStyler on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:41 pm

I'm too. I also upgrade to pro if 64 bit is on the line.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby Lui on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:53 pm

CoreStyler wrote:I'm too. I also upgrade to pro if 64 bit is on the line.
We can create an email with all the signatures of us (including profile link).


That might be more polite than sending them tons of single e-mails ;)

Everyone that would like to give his signature to this mail should say so and either me, or maybe one of the more "known" users sends that e-mail, once we have enough signatures.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby CoreStyler on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:17 pm

Lui wrote:
CoreStyler wrote:I'm too. I also upgrade to pro if 64 bit is on the line.
We can create an email with all the signatures of us (including profile link).


That might be more polite than sending them tons of single e-mails ;)

Everyone that would like to give his signature to this mail should say so and either me, or maybe one of the more "known" users sends that e-mail, once we have enough signatures.


Infuzion has thousand of posts. ;)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby trogluddite on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:00 pm

infuzion wrote:The devs rarely, if ever read this board.

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Maybe only on leap years! ;)

I'm happy to put my name down to say we want more development - but I doubt that it will make a huge difference.
You will most likely get a very polite, but also very vague, reply along the line of "we love you guys, please be patient, SM is not forgotten".
I have written to the dev's before at length (and made a PITA of myself on the FlowStone forum) pointing out the shortcomings of SM, frustration at lack of development etc. and told them how widespread the dissatisfaction is on the forum here - and that many have said they are quite prepared to show their loyalty with hard currency!
It seems that they have a particular road that they are determined to travel, and no intention of letting us know what it is. Maybe their hands are tied by legal red tape of licensing agreements, intellectual property rights etc. - or just sheer lack of manpower or finance to do the necessary work.
Let us hope that the silence is just because they are too busy programming upgrades to have time for making announcements - all of the recent upgrades have been done that way; no news until the official release is announced - that seems to be their policy.

Still, best of luck all the same - IMHO it is always better to try than to just sit around whining.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby Lui on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:13 pm

trogluddite wrote:it is always better to try than to just sit around whining.


Exactly my thoughts
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby CoreStyler on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:35 pm

I don't need that SM new update will be extraordinary. just some little thing.. and this is on the top because ever plugin vendor need that. For me, this will be also a incresing selling for outsim. And when SM will have VST 2.4+ and x64 export will be really a good way for developing plugins, since is easy and can also made good things. ;)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:04 am

To my view, 64-bit export is not a development priority. I for example work in 32-bit environment, using regular 32-bit VSTs and have no big complains about that; many of my friends (audio too) also work in similar environments or just on different platforms (MAC). From our perspective - more important is quality and functionality of plugins. So I would rather expect some optimizations in code, some bugfixes and some new functionalities (like networking?) than 64-bit support right now. People can live without 64-bit plugins, but having no expanding options (like streaming) - can make life more difficult. SM can make synths, but also effects and exe files, so it is multi-purpose environment, and flowstone direction supports that assumption.

Second - if you expect them to develop 64-bit export, then instead being/behaving like a fan - make them a business proposal, and estimate whether they are prepared to make any business with anyone. It's a matter of money, of strategy, of ability to co-work and manage a project.

Meanwhile lets do what we do - extend SM functionalities using things available inside SM, make our own work, and... have fun. ;-)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby infuzion on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:41 am

trogluddite wrote:
infuzion wrote:The devs rarely, if ever read this board.
Maybe only on leap years! ;)
I'm happy to put my name down to say we want more development - but I doubt that it will make a huge difference.
You will most likely get a very polite, but also very vague, reply along the line of "we love you guys, please be patient, SM is not forgotten".
Well, they may "visit", but where is the proof of reading the boards past the bugs & PMs?
The last reply I got from Malc was along the lines of "We will let you (all) know when we have something to say." Obviously, there is nothing to say.

I am grateful that he updated FL-SM to the latest SM though. However, in the future, I will never use a platform that is not either open source or supported by a full team. No more 1-man software for me, unless it is a minor widget or $2 iPad app or the like.

tester wrote:To my view, 64-bit export is not a development priority. I for example work in 32-bit environment, using regular 32-bit VSTs and have no big complains about that; many of my friends (audio too) also work in similar environments or just on different platforms (MAC). From our perspective - more important is quality and functionality of plugins.
Here in Denver, most audio people are Macs, & 1/2 of the PCs use Max4Live, so I'm out of the loop. I notice on KVR many asking for 64 bit VSTs, likely since 99% of the PCs sold in the USA are 64bit, to address the full 4Gb of RAM that are standard for new hardware. I think Abelton Live is the only holdout for non-64bit, though I'm sure that will come next version, likely in 10 months or so. I don't think people will spend much money on a VST that has no 64bit support, even if they do not use 64bit now, since it may be in a few short years it will become mandatory (almost is if you want to use large sample libraries).
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby trogluddite on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:38 pm

infuzion wrote:Well, they may "visit", but where is the proof of reading the boards past the bugs & PMs?

None at all - I was just tickled by the fact that the last visit was on a date that only comes around once every four years!
However, it seems that at least you and I have been in contact with the guys at SM about our concerns (and got pretty much the same reply) - so whether they check the forum or not, they cannot be completely unaware of the rumblings of discontent.

Re 64-bit
Like tester, I have absolutely no need for this at the moment, nevertheless; I think that keeping SM up to date with this (and VST spec's etc.) is of prime importance.
SM will only survive as long as it gets new users and generates revenue for OutSim, without that none of things we'd like to see will be worth their while developing. IMHO, those problems are likely the biggest bottlenecks to increasing the user base - very soon it will be impossible to buy a PC which is not fully 64-bit, and compatibility problems with hosts can be quickly spotted and publicised (e.g. at KVR etc.). Those two issues are likely to be the first that potential new users come across when they are searching for a DSP application (or one of our plugins) - before they even get as far as exploring SM enough to spot the more "schematic capability" type problems.
I am quite happy tinkering with the version of SM currently on my hard drive - but I would be over-the-moon to see it become bigger and better. So I thinks even us "casual" users do well to support the call for the upgrades required by more "serious/professional" users
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby Nu Audio Science on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:20 pm

You bought SM for what it was when you bought it
SM needed OSX export many years ago and never got it, it will never get X64 export either
Outsim have other interests entirely now and they don't really involve too much audio ;)
I believe X64 is coming at some point in Synthedit, the developer still supports that, so may be worth you trying that instead.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:54 pm

@Nu Audio Science - are they moving deeper in flowstone/robotics or trying to make something new, like video processing? I have an impression, that they have lost coherence of vision, splitting the concept into SM and FlowStone in this way they did it. I would rather expect a development of one unified piece of software and optional purchasable addons like ruby or whatever external else.

By the way - if Outsim is not interested to support the community, then - community members could say in exchange, that they don't allow Outsim to include their own copyrighted modules in further versinons of SM. ;-) Of course it would produce some absurd situations and tension between the community and Outsim (and it could spread to flowstone too), but these are a kind of dynamics, when unexpected things can happen; Egypt changed within days with the help of facebook as you remember. Now - I'm far from such extreme solutions, but on the other hand - if someone decides to treat me as a "meat" so to speak (cannon fodder would be proper translation? i.e. "don't ask questions, buy it and be happy with what we give you"), then I'm very close to change my mind about my attitude ;-) To conclude: I bought SM not for what it was when I bought it; I bought it, because it was enough to support and satisfy my needs, but my needs and knowledge can grow beyond - therefore I'm open for new functionalities and I expect them.

p.s.: are there any schematic converters between SM, Synthedit and Max MSP?
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby CoreStyler on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:23 pm

For me x64 export and VSTi SDK is vital.
There are many buyers that ask me for x64 plugin (so they dont need a bridge) and many ask for compatibility for new version of steinberg sequencers since there are many sites that say "beware of SM/SE plugins on cubase".
so, developers should take a look of that and make x64 export as the fist thing on the "to-do" list. This as basic.
SM can create good plugs (except when you need a timing) so more compatibility with the DAW is a good way.

And.. about Flowstone, i think that ruby is not a so good programming language for audio and for us, since c++ will be a better option because of the large amount of examples/sources and the respective juce/steinberg frameworks.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby Lui on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:10 pm

I think we all have a right to ask this single question:
Will there be future updates (64 bit etc.) and will they come within this year???

We all didn't only spend our money on SM, more than that we spend our time in growing our skills and developing Plugins.

If we keep on doing this and there will never be an update, we are all fooled by false promises a la "SM has not been forgotten."

This answer doesn't tell us anything.

I will stop using SM until I get an answer because else I waste my time, while I could have spent it learning other softwares / programming languages and looking for alternatives.

If there will be no more updates, then everyone in this forum is just purposely being kept here to attract new customers, because all the active forum members make it look like SM is very alive.

If the forum had been dead 9 months ago, I wouldn't have bought SM pro.

Now that releasing a 32bit only plugin became a definate no go, I cannot release my plugin and have to leave SM, very sadly, because SM is my favorite software and has all the potential to become even greater than it already is.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:08 pm

If you can make at least one plugin or standalone app, that you can sell, and that you can earn on it (or it can earn, giving you back the money you spent on SM and time you spent with SM) - then it's not so bad. Can SM be a tool for making good money or just good connections? Usually programmers are bad sellers ;-) and they need external channels of distribution, external companies that understand market and its needs. Freelancers (that includes programmers) - not always but usually - seem to be rather romantic idealists than pragmatic millionaires ;-) What about Gates or Jobs? Well - do we have millions of operating systems on the market or only a few?

Other visual dataflow programming languages are probably in many ways similar to SM (before SM, I tried synthedit for a few days, but I found that SM works better for me), so if you can learn one of them - you probably will re-learn another one very quickly. Besides, even if using SM is a waste of time, then you learn concepts and connections; so even if your first project will take a year of your life - making similar (or comparable) project in another environment - will take maybe two to three weeks. Because you are prepared. Among other "wastes of time", SM seems to be the compromise - or I'm too stupid to find any better else (any else please?). For over 10 years I couldn't learn C++ or Delphi or other things like that - they are just too foreign for my eyes. Dealing with SM - right now I'm doing precise sonic simulations, that two months ago I couldn't dream of.

If SM stops to be useful tool for most VST/VSTi developers - then there are some other sectors that will re-use it. Research and education for example, or niche market. I guess, that in 3-5 years - it does not matters anyway, because something dramatically changes again in technology, and most everything we work so hardly on - will become useless in some ways. But will it be a waste of time? What else would you do during these 3-5 years? What is more important - the goal or the path? Maybe it's a bit philosophical question, but it's the essence of larger-than-year projects. Besides programming - you are involved in life; in connections, in relations. If you wouldn't do what you do, then these would be different too, but for some reason - you do what you do. So - are you wasting your time right now?

I don't defend SM. But I understand my own motivation. ;-)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby Lui on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:29 pm

well, you're right, tester. i definately didn't waste my time, it was actually spent very well because working with synthmaker taught me everything about how a synth works. it visualizes, what an abstract thing like pure code, couldn't have showed me.
now, when i wanna build sth. i know exactly how it would be structured and what every single component actually does, so SM has been like education to me.
maybe that's just what it is.
i just wish it would be more than that because i don't think that there's a reason why it shouldn't be further developed.
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