exporting to 64 bit VST

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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:49 pm

Exactly. ;-)

My advise would be: to focus on - how express the expectations regarding SM development and where (to whom). Sure, we can make noise here... But it doesn't solves anything this way; at least according to my observations - not in this case. Question has been asked - let them work. If you want to get more info from them - I would rather ask for a general "road map" for SM for the next year or two, than for particular things like x64 export "because you need it and have good argumentation to". I guess SM owners read from time to time what is being written here, and smile under their noses. Probably they mostly read only headers, to check if there are any inspirational ideas in general, and everything else (especially our sophisticated talks and emotions behind) - pass unnoticed. ;-)

So maybe the idea is to make a comprehensive wishlist in a way that programmers do understand instead of insisting in ways, that they don't?
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby CoreStyler on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:26 pm

Will be goood what i posted on ideas forum. A section where we can vote/freelance the implementation of features, and follow the dev.
I like that ways, the way used by many young devs. Look at joomla! (cms), and many other php programming softwares including extensions (plugins).. I like this way. ;)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby stw on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:54 am

tester wrote:I would rather ask for a general "road map" for SM for the next year or two, than for particular things like x64 export

So maybe the idea is to make a comprehensive wishlist in a way that programmers do understand instead of insisting in ways, that they don't?


So do a vote for it HERE.
But don't have any expectations about it.
Everything written in this thread has been discussed over and over for the last years without ANY results.
Take SM for what it is and be surprised if any serious updates will come what i strongly doubt.
Malc the one and only dev around is focused on Flowstone. And i guess that alone is on the edge of what a one man show can seriously handle. I'd strongly advise to invest more time in researching and learning alternatives frameworks which cover your needs. That's what i do...
Anyway SM is an application which i'll never miss but it's also a dead end from the current status quo.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:46 am

I have some thoughts. There is a sub-forum "Ideas and Requests", but I think it is not well organized to be useful.

First - anouncements and sticky posts could be differentiated in a more visual way, so that when you get in - you see which one are which. Second - let people write their ideas and requests as they do, but... Third - some of these requests and ideas are/can be achievable in SM right now, some of them are written in incomprehensible language, and only some of them - are really vital for SM engine development. Therefore - a small team is needed (moderators who are advanced in using SM) to estimate whether an idea/request should change status from "normal" to "sticky" post (announcements reserved for rules, road maps, changelogs). Thus - SM related problematic things could be discussed separately and in one place.

Another thing that could be done separately - is a library of individual/particular modules (moderated split between "just gadgets" and "problem solutions", plus maybe some grouping of similarities) with descriptions and credits, easy to search and go through (such comfortable rearrangement for registered users only?); it will also allow to track and fix bugs, to make the solutions "final". Some of ideas and requests are probably addressed there and not to SM core. This could be also done with forum (i.e. it is not necessary to produce another CMS). If this can be done without a big effort, then there should be no frustration that makes people switch between opensource and commercial.

Sure there is "help" forum and search engine, but the more posts are there, the more difficult it becomes to find something quickly or to determine whether the topic has reached the final solution, plus - unoptimized duplicates?

It's a free thought, but maybe it's a direction worth to follow?
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bug tracking & modules

Postby infuzion on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:02 pm

tester wrote:I have some thoughts. There is a sub-forum "Ideas and Requests", but I think it is not well organized to be useful...
& the Bus forum has the same problem. There are 1000 other better solutions to track ideas & bugs, but obviously Malc doesn't want to use those. I don't think it is our place to tell someone how to run their website; it would be like being invited to someones house, then criticizing that is it messy & disorganized. If you want to pay for 10 years worth of an external bug tracker & give it to Outsim, go ahead :)

Also, part of my theory of lack of SM devs not reading the boards is the lack of feedback on the threads in Bugs & Suggestions, so how will a new system change that?

Over the years, there have been requests for a better user-module hosting solution. Sometimes someone will make a mega-pack. But neither ideas don't last long (more than 1 year) since they take A LOT of work, & no one will cough up enough money to creating & maintaining them worth the time.

Also, with out lockable modules, it is pointless IMHO. I have had many modules released here, & used later with my credits ripped out, sometimes being acknowledged as only as, "Thanks to someone from the forums, I forgot where I got this".
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:31 pm

Trog said, that this forum is a community independent from Outsim although it's on their domain, so I understand this is a symbiosis co-operation between individual entities (Outsim and the Community). Am i missing something? Besides SM based community is an independent organism (with or without Outsim/malc) anyway, and to my view - it can live it's own life (more or less professional, no matter what is going on on the other side); i.e. we don't work for malc, we don't work with malc, but ideas on both sides are freely exchangable. Changing the way how certain part of forum works - can (does not have to) open new ways of such exchange on a more partnership basis, because it makes people think. It's a matter of shaping (and having) a vision, and expressing expectations in more professional way.

Regarding critisism - if you pay for a room in the hotel, then you have the right to say your opinion if it's messy & disorganized ;-) (I paid for SM pro). I'm not criticizing, I'm just pointing my observations (maybe my english is not perfect; it's not my native) and possible directions instead of empty talks "oh, please please gimme x6596 export support please". SM creators are not stupid and surely know the same things as we do. It's a matter of woring out the "effective influence model".

I'm switching out from this thread, because I don't need x64 support right now ;-)

@stw - what alternatives (except max msp) do you mean?
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby stw on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:38 pm

tester wrote:@stw - what alternatives (except max msp) do you mean?


There're many ways of doing DSP stuff. It's important to find what fits your needs best. I started a new thread HERE. There i described what i think suits me best. Take a look at the linked ZIP in my post. The contained pdf may gives you some ideas as well...
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Re: bug tracking & modules

Postby CoreStyler on Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:15 am

infuzion wrote:
tester wrote:I have some thoughts. There is a sub-forum "Ideas and Requests", but I think it is not well organized to be useful...
& the Bus forum has the same problem. There are 1000 other better solutions to track ideas & bugs, but obviously Malc doesn't want to use those. I don't think it is our place to tell someone how to run their website; it would be like being invited to someones house, then criticizing that is it messy & disorganized. If you want to pay for 10 years worth of an external bug tracker & give it to Outsim, go ahead :)

Also, part of my theory of lack of SM devs not reading the boards is the lack of feedback on the threads in Bugs & Suggestions, so how will a new system change that?

Over the years, there have been requests for a better user-module hosting solution. Sometimes someone will make a mega-pack. But neither ideas don't last long (more than 1 year) since they take A LOT of work, & no one will cough up enough money to creating & maintaining them worth the time.

Also, with out lockable modules, it is pointless IMHO. I have had many modules released here, & used later with my credits ripped out, sometimes being acknowledged as only as, "Thanks to someone from the forums, I forgot where I got this".


Im working for this.
http://www.synthmakers.net/
Im building a fan-site for synthmakers developers where to upload/share/download schematics and where anyone can add documentations and "how to".
There will be also a Project "fork" host solution that can handle projects including files, private forums, and all what regards a co-op work. (calendars, tasks, milestones assignable to users). in the project area any registered can open a new project and specify what kind of project is: public or "invite" based.
The downloads section will be a good points where to find examples, DSP, modules, docs.. etc. Any uploaded files is linked to a profile and will be easy to find "who has developed what i... ehm... used".
All that will be free. I have already that host solution, so for me cost just a domain name x year. ;)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby infuzion on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:06 pm

Ableton is losing customers since they haven't switched to 64bit yet, nor announced one. Sure, many of them are power-users with lots of VSTs & big sample banks. But a $600 program is not a hobbyist price either.
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=169011
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby trogluddite on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:20 pm

Likewise, I've been reading some negative reviews of the new version 10 of Pro Tools (stunningly expensive) because it is still 32bit only.
I understand that this is so that it can still support the (also stunningly expensive) TDM HD hardware, and Avid have announced that TDM users will have to upgrade their hardware (at no doubt hideous expense!) in order to keep up with future upgrades.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:34 pm

So what is more important - making good sound/music or having more actual up-to-date software? I ask as a sound producer ;-)

Many times - I went downwards with the software, in order to get desirable results. Sometimes it was very nasty, but having no alternative - I had to adapt to what I had "right now, today, under my hand". I don't wait for uncertain future in which maybe someone will create better software; I'm here and now and either use "here and now" choices or do nothing at all. I hear many words here and there, like "this app is good, but there is no this, no that, missing something..." or "this new app is promising, and one day it may be a good alternative for...". But right now - there are not too many alternatives. Advanced programmers may go wherever they want to and use whatever they want. Ordinary developers with an idea to acomplish - have no such comfort.

My point is - making music is about making music, and not about updating your system on everyday basis. :-) I say that, because I have a friend, who is very good in "making music" so to speak, but for many years - he was so busy with updating his hardware/software environment, that he couldn't produce anything.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby trogluddite on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Yes, your point is well made - personally I'm quite a fan of using"outdated" or "imperfect" equipment - I still think that some of the best (or at least enjoyable to me) music I ever made was done on 4-track cassette with a handful of guitar pedals.
I'm sure that some people would criticise some of my plugin designs because of e.g. a bit of aliasing etc., and I even purposely include a little unpredictability in the control methods to encourage a good dose of serendipity. Being able to control all of the minutiae certainly can be very stifling of creativity in my experience.

For me, the difficulty only arises when one has little choice than to renew equipment.
I generally only buy a new PC every 7-8 years or so, when an old machine really has died - or maybe when new connection protocols etc. are required (e.g. a new machine to get USB for use with my first digital camera).
The trouble then arises that ones favourite software/hardware is no longer compatible with the new machine - for example, my current audio interface is only Win XP compatible via a very specific Firewire controller chip (I still have a box full of ISA soundcards if they are any use to anybody!).
Already I have two "legacy" PC systems here just for running "old favourites" - but it becomes ever more difficult (and time consuming) to source parts to keep those systems running.
For me, this is why SM updates are important. I am a great believer in knowing a few tools very well, rather than only scratching the surface of a hundred applications - to be able to react fast when inspiration strikes instead of being stuck on a never ending learning curve.
If, at some time, the only PC available to me will not run SM, then of course I will take up an alternative - and once again learn to operate a new toolkit (but I would rather be learning to express my creative ideas more fluently).
So I suppose my reason for wanting SM upgrades is opposite to some others here - it is not primarily because I want new, new, new (though I welcome enhancement with open arms) - mostly it is because I want to know there is a future for what I already have. If I move away from SM, I prefer that it is my choice to do that, not something that is forced upon me by a blown motherboard!

PS) Of course, this is all just the opinion of an "amateur tinkerer". For those people who use SM to make commercial plugins, their income (bread on the table) depends on supplying what their customers desire. Even if the developer does not personally believe in the "upgrade wars", they may need to incorporate the latest features in order that their business remains successful.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby tester on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:14 am

I agree. My point is related rather to rareness of updates and greater rareness of major updates than to lack of any need for updates. ;-)
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby infuzion on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:25 am

trogluddite wrote:Yes, your point is well made - personally I'm quite a fan of using"outdated" or "imperfect" equipment ...The trouble then arises that ones favourite software/hardware is no longer compatible with the new machine -...
If, at some time, the only PC available to me will not run SM, then of course I will take up an alternative - and once again learn to operate a new toolkit (but I would rather be learning to express my creative ideas more fluently).
I'm a big fan of setting up your system to the point where it works well then "freezing" it, making no more updates to either hardware or software until NEEDED. Perhaps I spent too much on my last PC purchase, 17' i7 with SSD, but once I have it set up, I won't do anything to it except perhaps ad some samples, a VST every few months, & maybe update the browser for security reasons.

I would have never joined SM if my tool of choice at the time (Buzz) wasn't crashing all the time & the dev quit working on it a few years before that.
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Re: exporting to 64 bit VST

Postby mayo on Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:20 pm

bump
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