Tiker 1000 Real or Illusion?

[mcfadden555]

Thanks,

I'll try a to write a code to solve my problem.
Unfortunately, it can not work all at once.
I work with synthmaker're only one year.
Therefore, there will be a challenge for me.

musical greetings

[brokebust]

+1000000 to this post.

Please please please fix green timing - or explain to me what the solution is that I'm missing. Everything i want to do requires it - I don't build "normal" synths - I'm interested in timing effects and controllers.

Example: A code block outputs a stream, OS, which is a constant value between 0 and X, and that output stream value OS changes when an input signal, IS, goes above a threshold. When that OS value changes, I need to generate a MIDI message. In a nutshell: when an input signal goes above a certain level a midi note is triggered.

AFAIK the only way I can detect a change in OS and send that to a MIDI message generator is via the ticker to get periodic values of OS and check them against the previous value. The timing for this is a--p--a--l--l--i--n--g, despite the fact I can see that the code output is changing with near-perfect accuracy.

It's like you have a fortune in a bank account but when you withdraw anything it's immediately devalued: ultimately frustrating. This is a massive and fundamental problem for me.

I have actually given up using SM until this problem is solved - I only come to the forum periodically to check if it has. I saw a post a long time ago saying it was a key priority - but still no release - is this intended be solved or not? If it will not be solved please tell me so I can abandon ship in enough time to swim over to HMS MaxMSP where the ticker works even if the app is not integrated into my host!

[MegaHurtz]

What you can do here for a 2%, msp will do at 20%, reaktor at 30%.
I would reccomend not to abbandon ship for the cost of a steeper learning curve.
Every solution to a problem here is a real one, and as soon as you get the grips.
It will sing for you in paying real dividence. instead of many build hours that will not be able to hit the market.
The flaws in green timing are there in msp. They are the same.
It`s the streams that are a real PITA in msp.

[MegaHurtz]

A float changing at sample rate is a stream. The green floats could never run at anything like that speed because of the overhead of passing the triggers through the schematic (to calculate which calculations need calculating - if that makes sense?) - your CPU would melt down!
Code is the only way to go - a code module is executed at sample rate by definition.
The limitations this imposes on MIDI and the GUI are well known, but unavoidable at the moment - the division between sample rate streams and 'run on demand' green/GUI is part of what makes SM relatively user (and CPU) friendly - IMHO, the way this opens up VST design to amateurs is a key point of SM. To have the kind of power/flexibility available to people like Native Instruments, there's nothing for it but to program in C++/ASM.

The Luddite.

After reading back a little, there are no limitations on midi and not on gui.
Midi was already slow when it came in. you are`nt going to get any faster. If it was based on a host the difference would be uncomprehenceable. Same goes for the gui.. Unless you have a supermind that can detect changes in image above 24fps. Wich we dont have. The slower ticker will suffice. So a ticker 100 will be redundant by 300%.

[brokebust]

Thanks for your inspirational words but what I really want is a technical solution - or at least hope of one coming along

I want to be able to synch things accurately - to an accuracy that I know is possible. When a stream changes I want to send out a MIDI note at that point, with no greater audible latency than if I had hit a key at that same point - which is hardly asking much I feel.

I can see no fundamental mechanism to achieve this or other simple timing goals - like firing messages in time with the host's BPM. Everything comes back to taking the stream (e.g. BPM) and then sampling out floats at massive intervals (with the ticker) so the synch is totally lost.

[MegaHurtz]

you can have a subframe of signal timing with a controlrate midimessage.
Pure midi is not that slow, see your keyboards and stuff they still use the outdated midi protocol
from way back. If you would do this via a ticker 44100, it will still be off track.
For technical reasons described by malc in this post. So a signal "heartbeat" is the way to go.

[brokebust]

When a stream changes I want to send out a MIDI note at that point, with no greater audible latency than if I had hit a key at that same point - which is hardly asking much I feel.

So a signal "heartbeat" is the way to go.

That could not work, because the signal could change at a point that was not on a "beat". If you need me to explain the issue again in more detail I can.

Either way, still no solution!

[MichaelBenjamin]

a stable tickersystem to produce and merge stream, midi & control data would be very nice.

[MegaHurtz]

When a stream changes I want to send out a MIDI note at that point, with no greater audible latency than if I had hit a key at that same point - which is hardly asking much I feel.

So a signal "heartbeat" is the way to go.

That could not work, because the signal could change at a point that was not on a "beat". If you need me to explain the issue again in more detail I can.

Either way, still no solution!

Read harder .. The signal will never change on beat.. It`s always limitted to the midi protocol for compatibily with midi. And it`s faster than you can grasp.

[trogluddite]

The signal will never change on beat..

Always some latency yes, and MIDI is reasonably quick (not quick enough for me - I play drums, and the flamming on my MIDI percussion kit drives me crazy). However, that doesn't get around the fact that tick 100 is a whole order of magnitude slower than MIDI. 10ms between ticks is definitely enough to give audible latency jitter. Depending where the ticks come relative to the musical timing, a note may be delayed by almost nothing, or by up to 10ms - it is the variation (jitter) in latency that makes timing sound sloppy. In contrast, a fixed delay of almost any length could just be compensated for.
For a VST instrument no problem, the trigger occurs at the moment the message is received - but if your plugin uses tickers to trigger notes (i.e. step sequencers, MIDI delays etc.) then it does make a difference, especially for percussion sounds. I remember reading some research years back that found that timing differences of this order in the drumming affected people's perception of 'swing' in jazz recordings, for example.

[MichaelBenjamin]

on the other side its quite astonishing that the windows ticker got such a shitty timing. if one builds an operating system i would assume that stable clocking and ticking would be one of the main features to provide. i can imagine with all that multitasking this could be hard, but that the devs didnt even implement also some time critical mode for realtime applications to rely on even with tradeoffs in multitasking is beyond me.

[oddson]

10 MS might not be good enough... but the 15-to-god-only-knows reality is even worse. It's the low priority that's the game killer. SynthMaker will not be suitable for any music event system until that's done. If it doesn't quite get to sample rate that may or may not prevent some applications but it's completely a no-go with the current system.

And now that's the final word on the issue and we'll all agree never to speak of it again even after it's fixed.

[trogluddite]

And now that's the final word on the issue and we'll all agree never to speak of it again even after it's fixed.

Yes, time to move on to pastures new... "Ticker 25 Real or Illusion?", anybody?

[rl]

And now that's the final word on the issue and we'll all agree never to speak of it again even after it's fixed.

but will it ever be fixed?

[matti]

Unless you have a supermind that can detect changes in image above 24fps. Wich we dont have. The slower ticker will suffice.

Wha-wha-wha-Whaaaat!?
Human eye can detect changes at approximately 70 Hz (or fps if you like). Have you ever watched old TV's that have a refresh rate of 50 Hz. That flickering starts to hurt your brain. Compare it to one that goes 100 Hz. You should notice a huge difference. Same as playing a game at 24 fps or at 60 or 100 fps.