Syncing feeling ?

[2nvu]

Last night i spent way to long combing KVR? searching for the very latest VSTi's , the Free 1's that is. & some Demo's of course, i think in the end i perhaps downloaded at least 10 vsti's , more or less most of them realeased in the last couple of months? but today .... "their all in the Bin" : ? after trying most of them at length, in a tune i just put together just for the sake of trialing Vsti' my own that is ! i am not at all pointing any fingers, cos i myself indeed did exatly that , when i first arrived here @SM forum, put out two peices of Sh**T, with regret i might add, So again i go back to this unsyncopated feeling that a lot of these Synths seem to suffer? by the way the synths were, SM/SE with equal dissapointment, i havent got the answer, but i do believe it can ONLY be down to the triggering system itself, not plumed in properly, & as it happens , midi as been a recent bug bear to me , but saying that i have done lots of experimenting in the last week & noticed just how the Synth's behave completly differently with the correct midi in's/output signals, or at least near correct? O & the reason for this little Rant is, SomeOne should really put out a real simple Tut On Midi/Rooting , i looked till i was blue in the face the other week @wiki,,, i could not find one? i mean if you buy a motorbike , u at least expect it to have an engine Right,,, lol its a good starting point certainly for people like myself,,,,

[MegaHurtz]

The midi mono is pretty tight, I dont know if the poly suffers any problems.
My tip would be to use signals as much as you can on the pitch and volume.
-A lot of green stuff slows everything down.
Plus.. green data becomes part of the way windows would handle data, wich is not in a straight line.
a lot of things getting stalled for other processes. And so the timing of green data is not
something that can be relied on.
Bleu or white data on the other hand is yust getting sent from your processor to your soundcard.
This is becouse the "digital signal processor" of the soundcard has to be spot on in giving the correct frequency,
and thus it won`t be stalled.(easily).
Maybe it`s about time we started using the video card on the side.. ?
Yust for graphics..
But untill then use as much blue and white as possible

[MichaelBenjamin]

the midi2poly timing is accurate, linear envelopes often sound bland on triggering. and in general its easy to render a synth in sm/se or in c++ if you can code well, but the other half still consist of doing something nice with the numbers, so its the creative dsp that may be lacking.
also with audio in general there is a huge amount of vaguely descriptive and mainly indirect emotional usage of words that often reaches into fantasyland in a way that seems to borderline mental retardation while it seems common sense that the quality of the plugin is reflected by its graphical appearance, so that only some experience can give you an authentic impression of the actual dsp quality.

[Nu Audio Science]

the midi2poly timing is accurate, linear envelopes often sound bland on triggering. and in general its easy to render a synth in sm/se or in c++ if you can code well, but the other half still consist of doing something nice with the numbers, so its the creative dsp that may be lacking.
also with audio in general there is a huge amount of vaguely descriptive and mainly indirect emotional usage of words that often reaches into fantasyland in a way that seems to borderline mental retardation while it seems common sense that the quality of the plugin is reflected by its graphical appearance, so that only some experience can give you an authentic impression of the actual dsp quality.

Couldnt have said it better myself

NAS

[2nvu]

the midi2poly timing is accurate, linear envelopes often sound bland on triggering. and in general its easy to render a synth in sm/se or in c++ if you can code well, but the other half still consist of doing something nice with the numbers, so its the creative dsp that may be lacking.
also with audio in general there is a huge amount of vaguely descriptive and mainly indirect emotional usage of words that often reaches into fantasyland in a way that seems to borderline mental retardation while it seems common sense that the quality of the plugin is reflected by its graphical appearance, so that only some experience can give you an authentic impression of the actual dsp quality.

Hahaha' GeeezzzZZZ "Michael" , back to Uni for me , just to get a degree in Digital pyhcology , so i can understand your quote lol , hey i am pleased tho, that at least the midi2poly is tight, which concludes my thoery that its all down to getting the exact triggers working & corectly in SYNC: Psttt i do hope this quote was,nt directed @me > borderline mental retardation ? lol

[2nvu]

The midi mono is pretty tight, I dont know if the poly suffers any problems.
My tip would be to use signals as much as you can on the pitch and volume.
-A lot of green stuff slows everything down.
Plus.. green data becomes part of the way windows would handle data, wich is not in a straight line.
a lot of things getting stalled for other processes. And so the timing of green data is not
something that can be relied on.
Bleu or white data on the other hand is yust getting sent from your processor to your soundcard.
This is becouse the "digital signal processor" of the soundcard has to be spot on in giving the correct frequency,
and thus it won`t be stalled.(easily).
Maybe it`s about time we started using the video card on the side.. ?
Yust for graphics..
But untill then use as much blue and white as possible

Cheer's MegaHurtZ . . . aaaahhh Blue & White huhhh ......So i must be nearly there with Resimulator, just add a bit of White & thats the Triggering system sorted? lol u guys realy do make me laugh somtimes, iam talking about triggering & syncing, & you guys are talking about pyhcology & coulours....please keep it up 'it gets funnier by the minuet

[Nu Audio Science]

iam talking about triggering & syncing, & you guys are talking about pyhcology & coulours....please keep it up 'it gets funnier by the minuet

I think you will find that what Micheal was saying is that they are both related
IE if it looks nice it tends to sound nice (To a lot of people)
IE maybe there is nothing wrong with the envelope triggering

NAS

[MegaHurtz]

lol, I wouldnt even dare to begin ripping on that one. but you get my point.
Its as far from true as good looking cows make better milk.
LISTEN!!

Most amateur plugins are crap becouse they feel like crap.
But they do really sound like crap aswell..(nevermind them runnung like crap)
Its yust a game for a few lucky labour of love kinda people.
Try to recognise the philosophy, wich I assume 2nvu is quite good at.

[Nu Audio Science]

I have absolutely no idea what you mean Megahurtz

NAS

[trogluddite]

As MichaelBenjamin said, it's not always down to MIDI timing - it's always worth looking at the effect of the envelopes - there are even real analogue synths that players don't like because the envelopes are too slow.

Also, it's worth knowing that the length of the attack segment affects how your brain perceives the timing - if you use, say, a 50ms attack time, it can be worth moving the MIDI notes earlier by 20-30ms to make the timing sound better, because the PEAK of the attack will always be 50ms after the start of the note. This is one reason I don't like step sequencers very much - very few have the ability to shift the relative timing of the tracks to compensate for sounds with a slower attack.
A good envelope generator with exponential slopes can also help to make the attack seem more 'snappy' because the initial build up is faster, then evens out as it nears the peak - so the average level of the attack phase is greater.

BTW, players of real instruments do this all the time, just ask any cello player - they have to start bowing the note 50-100ms early because it takes time for the vibrations of the strings to build up enough to form a clear note.

[trogluddite]

Here's some of the science behind my last post...
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.60.9590&rep=rep1&type=pdf
...sorry to be including more psychology - but all music has to be processed by the listeners brain; 'sample accurate timing' is meaningless unless you take into account how a human brain reads the 'groove'. A little understanding of the psychology of perception is just as important as all the techie stuff if you really want to nail a mix.
As Joe Meek said; 'if it sounds right, it IS right' - regardless of what your sequencer is showing you on screen.

[2nvu]

As MichaelBenjamin said, it's not always down to MIDI timing - it's always worth looking at the effect of the envelopes - there are even real analogue synths that players don't like because the envelopes are too slow.

Also, it's worth knowing that the length of the attack segment affects how your brain perceives the timing - if you use, say, a 50ms attack time, it can be worth moving the MIDI notes earlier by 20-30ms to make the timing sound better, because the PEAK of the attack will always be 50ms after the start of the note. This is one reason I don't like step sequencers very much - very few have the ability to shift the relative timing of the tracks to compensate for sounds with a slower attack.
A good envelope generator with exponential slopes can also help to make the attack seem more 'snappy' because the initial build up is faster, then evens out as it nears the peak - so the average level of the attack phase is greater.

BTW, players of real instruments do this all the time, just ask any cello player - they have to start bowing the note 50-100ms early because it takes time for the vibrations of the strings to build up enough to form a clear note.

Hmmm Good point Dude , but iam talking "digi" not acustic/human eror inclusive, in reguards to the timing of course,& since Megahurtz droped a HINT 2 Me? about Triggering from Midi2Poly too / ASDR / Filter /Seq/ + + , i have noticed how the Synth's respond , with far more figure & feeling but again,it comes back to the "all Important Routing system " if you get that bit wrong it dose not matter how good lookin your Sythn is, it will sound like Sh*t,,, even if it as real good presets to boot,,,,So someone please point me to a tut? that will show a Newbie like me how to get my House in Order? i say this with Tounge in cheeck, 1 of you Geeks' should put out the easy guide to a Fool_Proof_Midi_Setup ? Warning inclusive? if you dont follow this guide, forget about it , or go back to "Second life" ? lol ps i love u all really hehehe

[2nvu]

Here's some of the science behind my last post...
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.60.9590&rep=rep1&type=pdf
...sorry to be including more psychology - but all music has to be processed by the listeners brain; 'sample accurate timing' is meaningless unless you take into account how a human brain reads the 'groove'. A little understanding of the psychology of perception is just as important as all the techie stuff if you really want to nail a mix.
As Joe Meek said; 'if it sounds right, it IS right' - regardless of what your sequencer is showing you on screen.

Very interesting Trog, indeed

[trogluddite]

but iam talking "digi" not acustic/human eror inclusive

Me too - the point is that often people are looking for an error that isn't really there. The 'digi' timing can be 'perfect', but note on messages that are quantised to the digital grid will not always sound as if they are perfectly in time - the 'human error' is in the listener not the musician.
In terms of SMs MIDI routing, if the MIDI input is connected directly to the MIIDI to Poly of the synth, then you can't really optimise any further - once generated, the poly signals will be sample accurate. If you manipulate the MIDI before it connects to the MIDI to Poly (e.g. Channel filtering etc.) then there may be potential for some slight timing errors. Any other 'digi' errors either come from the sequencer/VST-host, or are due to the DSP itself (especially the envelopes) and won't be reduced by changing the plug-ins internal MIDI structure.

[2nvu]

but iam talking "digi" not acustic/human eror inclusive

Me too - the point is that often people are looking for an error that isn't really there. The 'digi' timing can be 'perfect', but note on messages that are quantised to the digital grid will not always sound as if they are perfectly in time - the 'human error' is in the listener not the musician.
In terms of SMs MIDI routing, if the MIDI input is connected directly to the MIIDI to Poly of the synth, then you can't really optimise any further - once generated, the poly signals will be sample accurate. If you manipulate the MIDI before it connects to the MIDI to Poly (e.g. Channel filtering etc.) then there may be potential for some slight timing errors. Any other 'digi' errors either come from the sequencer/VST-host, or are due to the DSP itself (especially the envelopes) and won't be reduced by changing the plug-ins internal MIDI structure.

Hmmm Trog, i am a tad lost here? i am the Musician/not the listener, & if my tools aint workin properly from the onset, it really does,nt matter how good of a player i am, & i do believe that midi data can be optimised futher? here's where i am at a loss? from Midi in - to Midi to Poly - & now i must trigger the Filters/ASDR/AmpEnvolopes + + +this list could go on? that for me is where the problem is,,,, if not resolved, will lead to a poorly runing Synth thats all iam asking, Try the latest upload of PimPOscRiffWurX,,,, it now feels like its really trying to be a Synth & not a Fony? lol Peace out Bruv.. O & thank you for your input Trog,,,, am tellin thi